The $100 Stop Sign Scam

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Getting a traffic ticket is no fun. It stings, usually to the tune of hundreds of dollars. What can make the experience even worse, though, is the realization that you’ve just been caught in the latest government scam to separate you from your hard earned cash.

If you want to avoid falling victim to one of the most egregious abuses of government power, you’d best avoid the public parks under the jurisdiction of the Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, otherwise known as the MRCA. This little known state agency, which administers the lands belonging to the Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy, the Conejo Recreation and Park District, and the Rancho Simi Recreation and Park District is out to get your money. And they’ll use every dirty trick possible to do it.

Their latest scheme is the installation of automated ticketing cameras at stop signs within their parks. Anyone who fails to come to a complete stop is hit with a one hundred one hundred and seventy five dollar ticket. Now we can all agree that blowing through a stop sign, especially in a park where pedestrians are likely to be present, is not only dangerous, but deserving of severe punishment as well as the contempt of your fellow citizens. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about what is commonly known as the California Stop, where a driver slows to a crawl but doesn’t quite stop completely before proceeding. Most drivers who engage in the rolling stop only do so when it’s clear that there’s no one around. You know, like in a quiet neighborhood or secluded park. And if there does happen to be another vehicle or pedestrian present, there’s plenty of opportunity to come to a full stop without putting anyone in danger. So, this is what is known as a technical violation. It’s a little like going 5 mph over the speed limit. Everyone does it at some point and no harm comes of it.

But regardless of the fact that this behavior puts no one at risk, the MRCA believes that if you engage in this practice on their turf, you deserve a $100 $175 fine. And to ensure that they can nab you, they’ve flagrantly skirted the state law that forbids the use of this type of automated enforcement. That’s right, this type of enforcement is not permitted under the California Vehicle Code, which is intended to be the law for all vehicles on the state’s roadways. So how can the MRCA get away with this abusive practice? They’ve simply declared that the law doesn’t apply to them. They’re special; they’re above the law. The arguments they make in support of this theory are extensive and I’ll leave that for another post where I’ll rebut them all.

What I want to concentrate on in this post, is their self serving claim that this is not about revenue enhancement, but rather all about safety. In fact, in response to the public outcry against this ticketing scheme, Joe Edmiston, executive director of the Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy, said: “I’m more worried about a law suit from somebody whose child is killed. We’d be sued for millions for not controlling the interface between visitors and cars.” Wow, it sure sounds like there must have been massive carnage on the roadways within these parks. Joe Edmiston just had to implement these automated fines to save the children.

So how many accidents or injuries can be attributed to drivers failing to stop at the stop signs on the roadways within the jurisdiction of the MRCA? Exactly zero. Not one. Not ever. When pressed, Joe Edmiston couldn’t cite even one accident or injury. Yet it was necessary to install these automated cameras which extract tens of thousands of dollars from unsuspecting park visitors yearly all in an effort to save the children. Of course, any reasonable person can see that safety has nothing to do with it. On the contrary, this is clearly about filling the coffers of the MRCA and enhancing their power within their little fiefdom.

But if you’re still not convinced that this isn’t about safety, have a look at one of these stop sign installations enforced with an automated ticketing camera.

Stop Sign Front

In this picture, taken at Marvin Braude Mulholland Gateway Park at the top of Reseda Blvd in Tarzana, you can plainly see that the stop sign sits pretty much in the middle of the road. There’s no cross street, no crosswalk, no intersection; no chance that any vehicle or pedestrian will cross your path. In fact, there’s absolutely no reason at all to have a stop sign here. And since there’s no common sense reason to stop, other than if you don’t, you’ll get a $100 $175 ticket; many motorists only slow down rather than come to a complete stop. Sure, it’s technically a violation, but only because the MRCA arbitrarily criminalized the behavior. What reason could the MRCA have for locating this sign in such a ridiculous and confusing location? Could it be purely in an attempt to collect as many $100 $175 fines as possible? It certainly isn’t to save the children.

And just to drive the point home, the reverse view of this idiotic photo enforced stop sign installation makes it even more obvious that it was placed in such a way as to ensnare the maximum number of park visitors and reap the greatest amount of revenue.

Stop Sign Back

So be forewarned, the MRCA is out to rob you blind. Don’t get caught up in their revenue enhancement scheme. Photo enforced stop signs are also located in Temescal Gateway Park, Top of Topanga Overlook, Hollywood Bowl Scenic Overlook, and Franklin Canyon Park. There might be others coming soon.

And if you want to express your outrage at how a rogue government agency is engaging in highway robbery, call your city and state representatives. They’ll probably tell you it’s perfectly legal; it’s not. One field deputy for former state senator Sheila Kuehl told me, “Well if the government is doing it, it has to be legal”. Brilliant. But you don’t have to get into any legal debates. Just tell them you abhor this type of blatant revenue enhancement scheme. Tell them you want them to look into it. At the very least, they’ll be on notice that you’re keeping an eye on the actions of our public officials.

And if you happen to have gotten one of these tickets, I want to hear about it. If you’re still fighting it, maybe you can be a test case to get this overturned. If your case is already finished, you should know that there’s a class action lawsuit in the works. I’ll post more about that when I have an update.

Finally, if you suspect that I’m so outraged about this because I’ve gotten one of these bogus tickets, you’d be wrong. I’ve successfully avoided contributing to the MRCA’s stop sign fund, mainly because I refuse to visit and drive in their parks. It’s my own little boycott.

After this article was posted, I found that the citation has recently been increased to $175. Now we can all be doubly outraged.

If you’d like to be kept informed about lawsuits or other actions we’re taking to stop this illegal money grab by the MRCA, you can sign up for email alerts using the form under the heading “Subscribe to the Freedom Minute Newsletter” in the sidebar to the right of this post. Enter your name and email address and check the box for “MRCA Alerts” under “You can also sign up for specific lists” and you’ll always get the most up-to-date information.

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May 26th, 2010 Posted by freedomminute | State Government | 191 comments

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191 Responses to “The $100 Stop Sign Scam”

Comment by Brian | May 27th, 2010

I did not get a moving ticket but I did get a parking ticket. What gets me is that any other parking ticket might be $30. This was $70! What a rip. So keep up the good work.

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Comment by freedomminute | May 27th, 2010

Thanks. The MRCA thinks they can do anything they want. Everywhere else in the state, there are limits to fines and how they can be implemented. The MRCA just ignores all that and says they have complete autonomy. The only way to stop them is to get our state representatives involved.

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Comment by Ben | June 2nd, 2010

Big time fraud. I called a (Ohio based?) number listed on the “ticket” and the operator told me that if I did not pay, it would go to the DMV to be added on to my registration. I finally tracked a ranger down at the MRCA and was told that actually was not the case after pressing the subject (unhelpful civil servant). The MRCA are the scumbag criminals and liars. Don’t pay the ticket. Moreover, they’ve set it up so you can’t get a fair hearing either so don’t even try to fight it.

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Comment by SJ | June 8th, 2010

I got one at Franklin Canyon in April. Of course I don’t want to pay it ($175), I was in a rental (Avis) and they ratted me out to the MRCA cult. And charged me a $25 administrative fee.
The only thing I can find out from web research, is if you don’t pay it they send a collection agency after you. Doesn’t sound like any of this is actually legal, but I am not a CA resident so I have no pull with CA legislators.
I’ll keep watching this blog for more information.
Thanks and keep up the good work!

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freedomminute Reply:
June 9th, 2010 at 1:55 am
First, there is a lot more info to come.

Also, I assume from your post that you are not currently in the state and therefore unavailable to fight this. Just another example of how those being hit with this administrative citation are being denied due process. Now, see my comment below.

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Comment by freedomminute | June 9th, 2010

For those of you that have been hit with a citation of more than $100, I have some important news coming. I hope to be able to knock out the ordinance as invalid. If that does happen, I don’t know whether a court would order retroactive relief, but it’s possible. There is precedent for courts ordering a refund to all those who were illegally cited. Stay tuned.

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Comment by Brian | June 11th, 2010

Could you tell me if there is a class action suit against MRCA and how to get included. Also a hint at the “news” and how to also get involved. Thank you.

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Comment by Eli Garcia | June 12th, 2010

I also have been caught at exactly this ridiculous stop for $175. I am very interested in any class action suit, or anything else I can do to fight this BS.

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Eli Garcia Reply:
June 21st, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Hey, I just got a second one! Wheee, I went to this park two days in a row and got two bs tickets for $350 because I didn’t stop at a completely reasonless stop sign.

I’m so happy we have these sleazy fascist fucks to take care of our parks with ticket happy rangers and fake stop-sign traps. Some days I wish I believed in Karma.

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Eli Garcia Reply:
June 21st, 2010 at 10:14 pm
VERY interested in any type of class action if you can chase down that lawyer.

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freedomminute Reply:
June 23rd, 2010 at 3:11 am
I expect to hear back from him later this week. He has a conference with the judge (and the MRCA) and we’ll have a better idea what we’re up against after I hear from him.

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freedomminute Reply:
June 23rd, 2010 at 3:12 am
Well if you keep paying them, they’re going to keep sending you tickets.

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Comment by Eli Garcia | June 12th, 2010

Also, shouldn’t there, at a minimum, be a photo stop warning sign like there is for a red light camera?

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freedomminute Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
The problem with the MRCA’s reasoning on this is that the codes that they claim they are operating under (the Natural Resources Code and the Government Code) just says that they can cite you for not obeying the “signs” and there’s no standard for what the signs have to be. Where that standard is found is the vehicle code (and the California Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices), but the MRCA conveniently claims that they are not bound by that (if they were bound, they wouldn’t be able to cite you using the cameras). I, and a lot of others, many who know the law better than I, believe that their arguments are BS. The problem is that you have to find a court that agrees with our reasoning and not theirs.

As for individual cases, you may get lucky in court and find a sympathetic judge and have your citation dismissed, but it is going to take a lot of work on your part. Most people just roll over and suck up the $175 fee because they don’t have the time or resources to fight it. And that’s what the MRCA is counting on.

The only way to definitively stop them is if someone files a lawsuit and wins in the appellate division or the California Supreme Court if it gets that far. Again, probably not worth it for an individual but might be worth it for a class action. See my comment below on that.

Alternatively, the legislature will have to definitively act to change or add to the California Code to make it explicit that the MRCA is not authorized to do this. I’ll put up a post on the possibilities of this and what you can do.

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Comment by Tyson Dexter | June 15th, 2010

VERY well done freedomminute. I just got stuck with this ridiculous ticket that is unfair, a scam, and a blatant ignoring of our rights.

I too have e-mailed and left numerous messages for Mr. Braun offering to help in any way possible with regard to the class action lawsuit.

I happen to keep a VERY close eye over my credit, and thus, will probably end up taking it up the tailpipe and paying the $100, SCRATCH THAT, $175 fine so that it is not reported to a credit agency.

It’s sad that our world has come to this. Just total BS in the name of “the kids.”

Any other information you happen to stumble upon, please e-mail me at Tisun@aol.com. Thank you again and well done!

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Comment by Brandon Gilbrech | June 19th, 2010

My name is Brandon and I received a ticket at the reseda park, the one pictured on the site. I have every intention of fighting this ticket. I think that it is preposterous to have a sign there. I totally understand the purpose of stop signs and street regulations when done in for the purpose of safety, but this is clearly not the case, and beyond that, the park was empty that day. Please contact me for the purposes of fighting or if I lose, to join the class action lawsuit. Also, can anyone say with complete confidence that they did not pay off this ticket and it did not end up coming back to haunt them. I have a clean record and want to keep it that way. Furthermore, if I contest the ticket, does it then disbar me from taking driving school and keeping my record clean?

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freedomminute Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Brandon,

This is an administrative citation, so it does not affect your record with the DMV and puts no points on your license. Therefore, no traffic school is applicable or necessary since the sole purpose of traffic school is to keep the violation off your record.

You probably won’t get anywhere fighting the citation on the grounds that it’s not a safety issue. You have to fight the law itself. I can help you do that (though I can’t guarantee anything) and will email you privately.

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Comment by freedomminute | June 19th, 2010

I have been in contact with the attorney who is handling the class action suit and hope to have additional information for everyone next week sometime.

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Joe Sandjian Reply:
June 30th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
I just received the two ticket in the mail for not stopping at the stop signs up Reseda blvd. After reading numerous state codes, I strongly believe this is scam and a way for MCAR to manipulate state laws to increase their revenues. I have two other ticket recipients who got a ticket on the same day (the car infront of me and the car in back of me) who believe this is completely unjust. Please forward me any info regarding that class action law suit and any information on the Lawyer. Thank you Joe Sandjian

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freedomminute Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 2:54 am
I expect to speak with him later today and will update everyone when I have more info.

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Comment by Ryan | June 21st, 2010

Hey Freedomminute:
I just received one of these tickets at Sunset Blvd Temescal Canyon Park and would love to find out more info on how to fight it.

Thanks for your post!

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Comment by Blake | June 24th, 2010

I got a ticket in the mail for the Reseda stop sign (one pictured above) I was wondering if ignoring it is ok or should I pay it off, and whats going on with a class action lawsuit?

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freedomminute Reply:
June 25th, 2010 at 6:18 am
Blake,

I can’t give you any legal advice, but if you do ignore this, it is entirely possible that they will hit you with additional penalties and then send your account to a collection agency who will eventually notify the credit reporting agencies of the debt. If you want some info on how you might fight the ticket, send me an email (use the contact link at the top of this page).

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Comment by John | June 28th, 2010

I have no money and am in dire straits financially, but I’m trying to provide healthy and educational recreational time for my daughter when I can. So, I take a ride up to Franklin Canyon driving very slowly the whole way out of respect for the space, not to mention the law. I even pull over for cars who want to go faster. We take a hike, see the ducks, etc. A week later the mail delivers a ticket for $175 for running a stop sign. I hardly remember it, but a video documents my car going through it. There is no way I can pay this ticket at this time. I will have to let it go to collections and live with that. I’d like to learn how best to fight this is there is a way better than just ignoring it. Thanks.

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Comment by kris Hicks | June 28th, 2010

I just got a $175 ticket at the Temescal cyn. park.The only negative I see in NOT paying is penalties and credit report. I have perfect credit so I could care less- unless they can sue to recover.

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Comment by Howard | June 28th, 2010

I’ve been going to the top of Reseda for years. Coming down the hill last weekend, I noticed the stop sign and of course I know there are no intersections, no crosswalk, no people around, etc, so I rolled through slowly. If they were concerned about safety, they would help slow people down by posting signs about the cameras. But without those signs, it would seem to be entrapment, a flagrant abuse and ignorance of the law.

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Comment by Howard | June 28th, 2010

Section 6.5 of MRCA rules (at http://smmc.ca.gov/MRCA-ordinance-10-03.pdf ) says:

“All citations, orders and notices required by this Chapter may be served either by personal delivery or certified mail…(snip)…If the certified mail receipt is returned unsigned, then service may instead be effected by first class mail…”

My citation came via first class mail, and there is no evidence whatsoever that any attempt was made by certified mail. This would seem to be a violation of MRCA’s own rules, and I imagine that once their own “hearing officer” denies my dismissal, that an actual court of law would have to dismiss it on these grounds…no?

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Comment by Kelley | June 30th, 2010

Got a ticket at Temescal on a Tues. a.m., no one, not even a ranger in the park. I have 3 kids, no time to fight this, but I’m outraged and strapped for cash. Has anyone not paid and gotten reported to collections? And if it goes to collections, if you pay like $5 a month, can they really do anything to you?

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John Reply:
June 30th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Look around the web on this subject. Especially interesting is a Pacific Palisades Gazette (or some such newspaper) indicating that there’s a class action suit. The video shows me (from behind) rolling through it. (see my post above) but I cannot pay it and plan to ignore it. There’s something mean-spirited about the whole thing. If you snoop around you’ll find they even put one at the end of a dead-end street! There’s something rotten and underhanded about the whole thing. I don’t understand the mindset, but they’re probably strapped for cash like everyone else. Problem is they’re scaring everyone away. I don’t even want to go back to these parks.

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Comment by John | June 30th, 2010

Lawsuit Filed over Stop-Sign Cameras
By Sue Pascoe, Staff Writer
2010-04-08
http://www.palisadespost.com/news/content.php?id=5646

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Comment by JS | June 30th, 2010

I went up Reseda Blvd (shown above) for a hike and received two citations on the same day. I was dumbfounded when i received the citation in the mail due to the unfair laws the MACR uses to their defense. They believe they can use loop holes in the our california code because their regulatory camera’s have the sole purpose of protecting their area of enforcement. if you take a look at the pictures above, the stop sign has no relevance to where it is located. The stop sign is put there just to scam drivers into paying these ridiculous fines. Their only defense for this regulation is so park visitors wont be in danger by on coming traffic. If you observe the picture above, the parking for visitors is no where near the actual stop sign, and if safety was the concern, they would have a purpose putting up the stop sign where the public parks and not a random area. I went up their with a couple of cars, and all of us received tickets. The fact that numerous people made the same mistake is evidence that the random placement of an unnecessary stop sign throws off park visitors. If anyone has been through this, going through this, or knows how to deal with this particular situations, I would highly appreciate any advice given to me. Thank you

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Comment by Anonymous | July 1st, 2010

Notice that there is no stop sign when you go up. Most people slow down when see stop sign with nobody around. If you go to their website there is actually two forms that you can fill out. One of them is “Trial by written declaration” other one is “Waive of the fee due to hardship”. I am going to try first one if it doesnt work second one. The big question for me is if you dont pay will it go on your credit report.

Also, someone should make a separate website just for this issue.

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Anonymous Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 1:25 am
http://www.mrcapublicsafety.ca.gov/

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SD Reply:
July 8th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Have you looked at the Hardship waiver application? It seems to me to be asking questions no govt’ agencies has a right to know (how much is your rent/mortgage, utilities, medical, credit card debt, etc.) and itemization of all your savings, checking etc. When you apply for a low-income discount with the utilities, for example, you have to give the amount that you earned last year and in some cases proof of that figure and that’s all. I’m unemployed and cannot afford this ticket but am very uncomfortable giving strangers a complete itemization of all my assets and liabilities. It’s more information than they need to know and feels intrusive.

The whole thing just feels ugly. It’s awful to know that the people who run our parks are like this. I don’t know if we can affect their personnel with our votes but if we can, we should.

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freedomminute Reply:
July 9th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
The hardship waiver is just for a delay in posting bail so you can go to the hearing without paying ahead of time. It does not get you out of paying the fine if (when) you are found guilty. Plus, they then have all this information about you to use in collecting the debt. I don’t recommend it.

As for what can be done, your representatives in Sacramento need to hear from you, both senate and assembly representatives. Many are actively supporting this action by the MRCA and need to know you will not vote for them if they continue to do so.

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Max Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Any luck with “Hearing by written declaration” option? I am considering the same thing.

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Anon Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 1:32 am
I returned the hardship waiver clearly showing that I was unable to pay the fine. Got a reply, denied. Must pay the fine to have a hearing.
How are you supposed to pay the fine if you don’t have it? In a real court, you have the option of doing community service. Do they offer such an option and if not, what are you supposed to do?

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freedomminute Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:13 am
The short answer is they don’t care, they simply want your money. As far as I know there is no option for community service – see the sentence above. The only thing you can do is not pay it if you don’t have the money and take the hit to your credit report when they send your account to collections.

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Comment by Paul | July 1st, 2010

After getting my “ticket” in the mail I originally thought this was a scam by someone and was going to ignore it until I did a little research online about the whole issue. Needless to say I was more than a little upset about all this and contacted David Goldstein from CBS to inform him about this little scam. To make a long story short, he is looking for people who are willing to share their story “on air” (possibly) about all this. So if you are interested or even if you just have a little time on your hand and would like to share your experience, please email him at: djgoldstein@cbs.com
The more people he hears from about all this the more likely he will do an on air story about it and the closer we will get to stopping this scam.

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freedomminute Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 2:58 am
I would recommend everyone contact David about this with their story. I have been discussing this with him and he is very interested in hearing from you.

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Comment by mary mary | July 1st, 2010

I got one too. Last week at Franklin Canyon. Bastards. Help me fight. And also, I want in on this class action.

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Comment by freedomminute | July 2nd, 2010

I just wanted to let everyone know that I spoke to the attorney about the class action suit today. There isn’t anything to report right now but he is continuing to go through the process of setting this up. He said you are free to email him with your info, although he might not be able to get back to everyone immediately, he will keep your info on file and contact you when appropriate. http://www.braunlawgroup.com/ Remember that this is not a substitute for fighting this on your own and my advice is to go through the steps to fight the ticket up to the point that it’s no longer worth your time and energy to keep fighting. I’m happy to help you as best as I can.

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Comment by SD | July 2nd, 2010

My first concern about these tickets is that the warning signs are much smaller than standard photo light signs you see around town. I hike in Temescal often and never noticed them.

The second concern is that they say you’re responsible for the fine even if you weren’t the driver. That’s got to be illegal. Drivers are responsible for their infractions, not the owner of the car. If I borrow a friend’s car and get into an accident, it’s my responsibility, not theirs.

But what’s weird and feels almost conspiratorial is that sometimes the left turn arrow on Temescal and Sunset doesn’t work. After waiting through several cycles of green lights, drivers end up driving the into the park to turn around. But there’s no U-turn at the main median, forcing drivers to drive into the parking lot and out this exit where the photo light is posted.

I go to this park frequently to hike (& park on the street, never in the lot) and the traffic in that lot is in dribs and drabs. This seems like pure revenue scam and one wonders why the MRCA would penalize those who love and use the parks in this way. If they’re hard up for money (are they?), why not raise money the honest way, through fundraisers and special events? This would engender greater goodwill for the parks, whereas this overreaching ticket policy has created enormous ill will against the MRCA. Shame on them for lining their pockets in this way.

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Comment by daniel | July 5th, 2010

i got a $175 ticket at temescal after the park was closed. if anyone has info on how to fight it or the class action suit to join, please email me at daniel.reitzenstein@gmail.com

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Comment by Michelle F. | July 6th, 2010

I recently received a $175 ticket at Reseda Point. I honestly believe that this ticket is bullshit. The stop sign has no purpose being there. If anyone knows how to fight it or join a class action suit against this, please email me at mimi200543@yahoo.com Thank you.

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Comment by April Brown | July 13th, 2010

I got $175 ticket at temescal canyon and it’s just ridiculous. Put me on your list of people that want to get rid of these cameras. Thanks for the article.

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Comment by SD | July 14th, 2010

Can you please update us on what is happening with the lawsuit? Calls to Mr. Braun’s office and emails are not being returned. Several of us have attempted contact.

While we await the slow process of a class action suit, could someone from Mr. Braun’s office fill us in on the legal means for fighting this? i.e., my guess is that it’s not legal in the state of California to issue a ticket if you can’t prove who the driver is, but the MRCA’s position is apparently that they are their own governing agency and stand outside of CA laws. How would we respond to that assertion in court?

If Mr. Braun can’t help then does anyone know another attorney who might?

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freedomminute Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 5:05 am
I will try contacting him to see what’s up. Also, there is a national group that may be willing to help, and I’m waiting to hear back from them. Might be a week or so.

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Comment by Angele | July 17th, 2010

Hi, I’m in the same boat…two $175 fines for a caught on camera stop sign violation. Please contact me at angelecfer7@yahoo.com as I would also like to fight not only the ticket but the injustice overall. Thank you.

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Comment by Tigran M. | July 17th, 2010

Hi there. I found your article to be quite informative and shocking. I received one of these $175 tickets on June 29th at 11:13pm and just got it in the mail today. It was at the top of Topanga overlook, where I could see clearly for a 1/4 mile in each direction, while pulling out of the park. I have read in several other sites that it is illegal for photo radar to be used for ticket issuing, and that the persons face must be readily identifiably. The photos and videos of my vehicle were taken from the rear at night, which clearly does not show me as the driver, but my license plate instead. I am not sure how to fight this if it is indeed illegal.

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freedomminute Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
Unfortunately, “illegal” is a relative term when it comes to the government. They can make what “you” do illegal and penalize you, but getting them to stop their illegal activities is a much more difficult task. More specifically, the other websites you mention are correct when it comes to penalties under the vehicle code and when you are charged with an infraction. Unfortunately, the MRCA is charging you with an administrative violation under their own ordinance and feels that they can do pretty much whatever they want. As to how to fight it, that’s the $175 question. It’s not going to be easy and there’s no guarantee of success, but if you just roll over and pay it, they’re just going to keep doing what they are doing.

If you want me to help you, contact me through the contact page with your email and phone number.

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Comment by Sheri | July 24th, 2010

I hope everyone contacts Mr Goldstein at CBS. Clearly this act is abusing our Constitutional rights and we are powerful in numbers. The media can work for us IF we work with it. Please email Mr Goldstein as the above persons resepctfully opened the door for us all.

Mr Goldstein’s email: djgoldstein@cbs.com

I would not pay them a penny for their entrapment and abuse!

You can also contact the law office involved with the class action case against MRCA

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Comment by Anon | July 26th, 2010

How can it be legal for the MRCA to declare themselves outside the laws of the city, county or state that they are located in? Nowhere else could you get away with this.

I contacted Mr. Goldstein but received no reply, fyi.

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freedomminute Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:15 am
It’s not legal, but they will keep doing it until someone stops them. That means a judge or the State Legislature. We’re trying on both fronts. What are you prepared to do to help?

[Reply]
Comment by Howard | July 26th, 2010

Perhaps small claims court would be an option to get the money back once you have paid it? Kind of a pain, but I can’t imagine MRCA could afford to keep going to court on multiple such claims.

[Reply]
Anon Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
I’ve already written my representative & contacted the attorney and Goldstein.
What would you suggest?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
These are good starts. We’re going to have to get a groundswell of opposition if we want to affect change. Which representatives have you contacted and I would also call their offices. The representatives who would be the most effective would be your state representatives.

[Reply]
Anon Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 4:30 pm
I contacted Fran Pavley’s office and Sheila Khuel. I also spoke to representatives on the Pacific Palisades Community Council. They have been trying to fight this for 5 years, as i understand it. Apparently John Edmondson (sp?) the head of the MRCA, who is intractable and confident he cannot be fired. He’s also closed the much beloved Temescal pool.

I think we ought to let the governor’s office know that this man is extorting 2 million dollars a year from voters under their own rules and terms that do not comply with the state’s vehicle codes.

the palisades council, btw, meets this thursday 8/12 at the palisades library if anyone wants to come and bring this issue up with them.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 2:56 am
You’re going to get nowhere with Fran Pavley or Julia Brownley nor Sheila Kuehl. Both Fran and Julia are in Joe Edmiston’s camp (they’re even listed as his friends on Facebook). They block any attempt to reign in the MRCA. In fact, a few years ago I contacted Sheila Khuel’s office when she was still a state senator and when I described the illegal activities of the MRCA, her staff told me, “If the government is doing it, it must be legal”. This is what we are up against. However, a week from Friday I have a meeting scheduled with Assemblymember Mike Feuer. We’ll see what he has to say about the situation.

By the way, if you google Joe Edmiston, you’ll see how he has been able to build his power over the years to become, as one article called him, “King of the Hills” (although I think “Mussolini of the Mountains” is more appropriate). And just remember, the only way to oust a king is for the people to rise up and dethrone him.

[Reply]
Anon Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
I have zero faith in our court system.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
I’m not sure if you can sue a governmental agency in small claims court. It’s an interesting idea. I’ll check and let you know what I find out.

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
You can. First you have to file a claim with them (I assume you can just mail this in and wait a few weeks while they ignore it), then you can sue.

See here:
http://dca.lacounty.gov/tsSueGovt.html

Note that you only have six months from denial of the claim to sue.

Edit—

Sorry, six months from explicit denial.

It is considered denied if they ignore it for 45 days, and you can sue for up to two years after that.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Good information there. I have spoken to an attorney regarding suing in small claims and he is checking into how that would work in this type of situation.

[Reply]
Comment by meTarzana | July 26th, 2010

If they were concerned about safety they would have put a stop sign coming into the park also, not just coming out when one is looking around admiring the view. I am one of those who wants to join in any class action.

[Reply]
meTarzana Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Check this information out. Yes, they are/were in Northern California. http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#MRCA

[Reply]
Comment by Follow the money | July 29th, 2010

Follow the money and see how much these administrative penalties fit into the MRCA budget (or money making scheme).
Their revenue report shows that the actual amount for admin. penalties (what they classify these tickets as) for 08-09 was $1,874,914 and a proposed revenue budget for 2010-2011 to be $1,990,000. Nearly 2 million a year comes from administrative citations like these. Sure not all the penalties come from these “tickets,” but you can bet that a large amount does.
Their buddies at RedFlex are also making a nice amount. Based on the MRCA’s payouts to them:
1/14/10 $39,303
2/18/10 $42,702
3/11/10 $44,627
4/8/10 $43,697.50
5/20/10 $34,232
5/27/10 $43,136.50
6/24/10 $30,800
Nearly $300,000 in 6 months to Redflex (which only gets a PERCENTAGE of what they take in for the fines). The 2006 meeting agenda where the MRCA voted to enter into a 5 year contract with Redflex shows each “ticket” payout to Redflex to be $25. Pretty good profit for the MRCA and I have to ask myself what have they been doing with all that “extra” money they collected from safety violations. Surely at least 25% has gone back into the parks to promote safe spaces and walkways (their justification for these stop sign cameras). Good luck finding the safety improvements. If this was truly about safety, then something more would have been done and with that much money signal lights could have been easily installed. I only went back to January 2010 to find all this information on their website, but this scam has been going on for a LONG time.
There was also no explanation as to why they increased the fine from $100 to $175. It can’t be that they are being charged more by Redflex because they have a multi-year contract that locks in the rates (I think for years). Budget cuts elsewhere and salary increases most likely led to this need.
At some point someone has to expose this for the money making scheme it is designed to be. Reading through their attachments it was interesting to see how many references there are to state laws and procedures, but when it comes to this issue they only adhere to their own administrative code.
When will it be enough?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Excellent work!

[Reply]
Anon2 Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 4:33 pm
Those are amazing figures. If the system’s been in place 5 years, that’s 10 million dollars they’ve collected. Wow. Wonder whose pockets that’s lining.

[Reply]
Comment by D in Cali | July 29th, 2010

I got one of these tickets and since this is not handled by the courts, I have refused to pay it. It went to a collection agency in Ohio they sent me a threatening letter, but again I have refused to pay. They cant do anything in terms of affecting your credit, or your driver license so i understand. Thus far nothing has happened to me. The fact that they make the citation look like an official court approved document (what ALL other traffic violations tickets are)and try to pass it off as such is also criminal and what they are really doing is committing extortion.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
How long ago did they send this to collections? Are you absolutely sure this has (or will) not show up on your credit report?

[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I am sure it would take t least 3 month before it is going to be sent to collections. It says on their website if you dont pay it it is going to your credit report.

[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago) at 12:08 am
going to a collection agency is different than going to your credit report. Bills from collection agencies, unless for doctors or credit cards, do not end up on your credit report. These tickets say they will go to a collection agency if unpaid, so I say – let them. It does nothing to me except give me a few unwanted pieces of junk mail and a couple unwanted phone calls!

[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 7:40 pm
My experience with a parking ticket many many years ago (which I think is a similar type situation) is that it is first sent to a collection agency and then eventually appears on your credit report if not paid. It stayed on my record for 5 or 7 years (I forget now). I personally didn’t care because I didn’t need to apply for credit during that time, but the situation might have been different if I was going for a mortgage or car loan while it was on there. I can’t give any advice as to how much impact, if any, this might have on someone’s financial situation, but I wouldn’t want anyone to ignore it without knowing that there was at least a possibility for some negative consequences.

[Reply]
Comment by Tony | July 29th, 2010

I read somewhere on the web that there was a lawsuit filed against the MRCA in Northern California which they lost, and they had to pay back millions in fines they had collected, but I can’t find it now. If that is true, I wonder if they were found to be in violation of the California Vehicle Code, and if so, how is it that now they supposedly are not bound by the CVC. Does anybody know anything about this previous lawsuit?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
If anyone can find this, this would be great information to have. I didn’t think the MRCA operated in Northern California, so I wonder why there would be a lawsuit in that area?

[Reply]
meTarzana Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
This website has lots of information. Go to Legal/Action heading. There is a fountain of info. there.

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#MRCa

Yes they were in No.CA. Very enlightening.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:22 am
I’m very familiar with this excellent website, but I’m not sure what info you claim is there regarding a lawsuit in No. Cal.

[Reply]
Comment by DaveD | July 29th, 2010

I got one of these lame MRCA tix on a trip to SoCal six weeks ago. I live in Colorado and do not make it out there frequently. Probably once every five years. What’s the downside of not paying the ticket?

[Reply]
Comment by DaveD | July 29th, 2010

The bad credit report angle sounds like a stretch…

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:10 am
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the collection agency won’t notify the credit reporting agencies?

[Reply]
DaveD Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I believe the impact of this single issue on an otherwise good credit report will be insignificant.

[Reply]
tom henderson Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 5:05 pm
What are they gonna tell the credit bureau? All they have is a name and address. No DOB, no physical description, and most importantly, no SS#. Me thinks its a scam for those willing to get scammed.

[Reply]
Comment by Tony | July 30th, 2010

What a drag, I guess I was wrong, it must have been some other agency that operates in Northern California that lost a lawsuit. Anyway I tried contacting the Braun law group about their class action lawsuit against the MRCA and so far haven’t been able to talk to them, just like a poster above. I also called my state assembly office – Fran Pavley – and complained to them and asked that they request a formal legal opinion from the attorney general’s office, instead of just the informal one in which they backed up the MRCA contention that they are not subject to the California Vehicle code.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the lawsuit, hopefully the MRCA will lose and we will all get our money back (I decided to pay my fine).

[Reply]
Comment by freedomminute | July 31st, 2010

Hey Everyone,

I may have a solution for those of you still fighting your tickets. I just sent an email to everyone who commented here or contacted me directly. If you didn’t get an email, contact me through the contact page above and I will send you the info.

[Reply]
Johnny Reply:
July 31st, 2010 at 11:51 pm
I got two tickets at Franklin Park. Unsure whether to pay but do not want my credit messed up. What do you think I should do? Thanks.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 1st, 2010 at 4:30 am
I always recommend contesting the ticket if it is at all possible to attend the hearing. Why just roll over and hand them your money? At least make them work for it. Also, attending the hearing is the first step in defending yourself. If you lose there, you can file for a new trial in Superior Court (costs $25) where you have a better chance of beating this with a legal argument. If you just pay it, all your options for fighting it cease. I will be posting more info on this later today. Check back here before you do anything.

[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 3:09 am
Well, you do have to pay it even in order to schedule a hearing.

[Reply]
Howard Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 9:49 am
Here’s the thing about contesting the ticket — doing so is to admit that you received it. I don’t know about you, but my “citation” came via regular U.S. mail, whereas section 6.5 of MRCA rules clearly directs that “All citations, orders and notices required by this Chapter may be served either by personal delivery or certified mail… If the certified mail receipt is returned unsigned, then service may instead be effected by first, class mail…”

Well, I received mine via untrackable first class mail and we should all be able to challenge them to produce a returned certified mail receipt. I mean, if they are going to make up their own rules, then they ought to at least follow them!

Additionally, I don’t recall any signs or notices upon entering their “private property” (top of Reseda Blvd) stating that I was entering private property and must adhere to the owner’s rules rather than to standard California Vehicle Code. They can’t have it both ways.

[Reply]
Comment by freedomminute | August 2nd, 2010

@Anonymous Yes, according to their rules, you have to pay in order to request a hearing.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 2nd, 2010 at 8:38 pm
@Howard The current ordinance says this:

§ 6.5. Service of citations, orders and notices. All citations, orders and notices required by this Chapter may be served either by personal delivery thereof to the person to be notified or by deposit in the United States mail, in a sealed envelope, or postal card, postage prepaid, addressed to such person to be notified at his or her last known business or residence address as the same appears in the public records of the Authority or other records pertaining to the matter to which such notice is directed. Service by mail shall be deemed to have been completed at the time of deposit in the postal service. Failure to receive any notice specified herein does not affect the validity of proceedings conducted hereunder.

So as you can see, they not only make up their own rules, they keep changing them to suit their needs.

It seems they can have it both ways (in fact a number of ways) until some judge or the legislature stops them.

Of course the vehicle code has to apply within their parks, otherwise they’d have to create a whole set of vehicle use rules that just pertain to their property. For example, there’s nothing in their ordinance that requires you to have insurance or a driver’s license or even a license plate on your vehicle. There’s nothing that restricts driving to those over a certain age, so presumably a 3 year old can operate a vehicle in their parks. As you can see this is a nonsensical position to take. (But that hasn’t stopped the MRCA from taking that position.

[Reply]
Anon Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 4:17 pm
Not only do you have to pay in order to contest the ticket but if you are applying for hardship waiver (for prepayment prior to hearing) you cannot contest the ticket. That’s what I was told but that actually makes no sense.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 5th, 2010

I received one of these beauties on July 4, 2010 at the Reseda trap. I KNOW I made a full stop. I think the trick is you have to cross the sensor in the road and then stop. However, upon returning to the area today, Aug 5, 2010, I noticed that the sensors are only a few feet from the limit line. Therefore, even if you make a full stop, but don’t activate the sensor, you can still get a ticket. The California Driver Handbook states, “An eight-sided red STOP sign means you must make a full “STOP” whenever you see a STOP sign. Stop before entering a crosswalk or at a white limit line which is a wide white line painted on the street. If a crosswalk or limit line is not painted on the street, stop at the corner.” But, there is no indication of just what a full stop is or how far that really is from the limit line. One foot, two feet, 6 feet?? Today I did my best at getting close to the limit line, stopped, and counted to five. We’ll see what happens. Now really this is no different than being pulled over in a small town and arrested on a trumped up charge to extort money from you. Totally crooked!

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago) at 3:36 am
The only thing you are charged with is violating park rules and the rules simply say you have to obey the signs. There are no specifics and they can pretty much make up the rules as they go along. This is why allowing individual jurisdictions to make their own rules leads to abuses. When traffic laws are created at the state level, they go through a complicated process that hopefully results in clear and specific rules that are consistent throughout the state. And this is why the vehicle code is supposed to apply everywhere in California.

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 5:42 pm
I also had a sensor issue. I didn’t come to a complete stop, but I know I slowed down MUCH more than the MRCA says I did. I think it was before I tripped the sensor though, and so wasn’t on the video.

[Reply]
Comment by tom henderson | August 5th, 2010

Got the $175 gift via the “park” at the So. end of Reseda Blvd. today. Viol was supposedly the 2nd wk of July.
If the notice is just shitcanned, where is their proof that I ever even received it?
Additionally, isnt there some law that mandates warning signs that photo enforcement cameras are in play?
This is perhaps even worse than the old speed traps in the south of the 60′s and 70′s. THis has nothing to do with safety, everything to do with generation of revenue.
I have never been a proponent of vandalism, but in this case, I could make an exception if someone targeted that camera.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago) at 3:38 am
They can’t prove that you got it. However, they will most likely report you to their collection agency (adding interest and fees) to try to collect.

[Reply]
Comment by Peter | August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago)

Hi, I just received 2 of these stop sign tickets from Temescal Park within a couple weeks….How do I get in on the suit? Is everyone who is in the suit paying now with the hopes of getting the money back upon victory, or are you disregarding?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 7:47 pm
Peter, you should email me through the contact page and I will send you the info.

[Reply]
Comment by Emily | August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago)

Does anyone know who presides over a hearing, if it is granted? A park ranger?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 7:48 pm
It’s one of their employees as far as I know. It’s certainly not and independent person.

[Reply]
Comment by tom henderson | August 6th, 2010 (5 weeks ago)

This occurred to me today as I thought about this whole sitch. So, I just ignore the “ticket”. They go to a collection agency. I ignore them as well. How will they get my tele # to pester me? And how can they jam me up w/credit agencies, wouldnt they need more personal info, like my SS#, DOB, etc?

Also, I seem to remember hearing that if you respond, not agree with, but just respond to the collection agency and deny responsibility for the money, they cant do anything else but continue to pester. Perhaps someone else knows about the collection process. I have never dealt with one.

[Reply]
Anon Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 4:22 pm
Can’t they get personal info on you thru your license number via the DMV?

[Reply]
Comment by meTarzana | August 7th, 2010 (5 weeks ago)

I guess we will all find out I just sent one of my two tickets in with a check for $175.00 and a request for a hearing.

[Reply]
Comment by Adam - Woodland Hills | August 8th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I just received a “ticket” from the MRCA for a rolling stop at the Top ‘O Topanga Park and have been researching it’s invalidity. My greatest concern relates to the fact that there are no signs for the camera, no photo of the driver, etc, which goes against California State Law. Furthermore the MRCA’s system to request a hearing to contest the ticket requires a pre-payment of the full citation and it seems from the comments I’ve read online, no one has successfully fought it and won.

Clearly there are many citizens outraged at the MRCA for their brazen approach to our “protection” and concern over a seemingly illegal scam to generate funds for their organization. People have already started a class action law suit (the law firm handling this is posted on this webpage), and further more the Pacific Palisades Community Council has filed their own lawsuit contesting the MRCA practices. I have contacted the law firm requesting more information and I am posting here to add my voice to the community outrage.

Thank you Freedom Minute for giving such a clear and concise summary of the situation and for providing us a platform to share our thoughts.

[Reply]
tom henderson Reply:
August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 5:01 pm
Ive thought about this sitch quite a bit.
*They cant hit you up with a “failure to appear” because you never signed a ticket.
*They have no idea who was driving the car, so they cant arrest you.
*They and the DMV dont cross SS numbers w/the registered owners.
*DMV doesnt keep regis owners tele number(s) or employment info, or DOB.
*How much info do they REALLY have to supply a collection agency, and in turn, how much info does a collection agency have to give to a credit reporting agency? I suspect that simply a name and address is insufficient. They probably get much more info from those who respond to their ploy.
*They (MCRA) have no evidence that you ever actually received the ‘ticket’. I could have been lost in the mail, IE.
*The vehicle code section for a stop sign viol is 22450VC. The MCRA says “A VIOLATION OF SECTION 4.0/4.2.1 – STOP SIGN”, never says a section of ‘what’. Its not the state vehicle code.

I think the biggest mistake that victims make is to interact with the MCRA. I am convinced its best to just ignore the notice. I suspect that this is a very shady operation,
reminiscent to whats going on with the city of Bell. Eventually, it will tumble. But I doubt that they will make retroactive refunds.

Saw this on their site:

What if I do not pay my citation?

Failure to pay the assessed administrative penalties and/or administrative costs specified in the administrative order may be enforced as a personal obligation of the VIOLATOR, which shall remain in effect until all of the administrative penalties, interest and administrative costs are paid in full.

They clearly acknowledge that they only know the registered owner, and not the VIOLATOR. This convinces me that this whole thing is a scam, hoping that people will be scared by their official looking notices, and will be happy it wont go on their insurance of driving record, and just pay it quickly. I read their whole park ordinance, which was adopted in May of 2010, incidentally. At the end, is gives the last names only of the four board members that votes ‘aye’ on the ordinance, and there are two signatures that are not legible, not do they have a printed name below them. I am convinced this whole thing is a scam.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 8:02 pm
Tom – You make a number of great points that would be valid if they were citing under the vehicle code. Unfortunately they are citing under their own ordinance which has less protection than state law (which is one of the reasons it should be invalid). Again, as a government agency they have to power to get whatever info is associated with the registration of the vehicle, then claim the owner is liable, add a bunch of fees and penalties, and then send the account to collections. As I stated in my reply to Anonymous above, my experience with a parking ticket many many years ago (which I think is a similar type situation) is that it is first sent to a collection agency and then eventually appears on your credit report if not paid. It stayed on my record for 5 or 7 years (I forget now). I personally didn’t care because I didn’t need to apply for credit during that time, but the situation might have been different if I was going for a mortgage or car loan while it was on there. I can’t give any advice as to how much impact, if any, this might have on someone’s financial situation, but I wouldn’t want anyone to ignore it without knowing that there was at least a possibility for some negative consequences.

And I’d love to hear from anyone who ignored this at least 6 months ago or longer to know what actually occurred with added fees, collection agencies, and credit reports. Anyone?

[Reply]
Comment by SD | August 9th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

A little frustrated by lack of info from Braun office. If they are not going through with this, then perhaps we can find another class action attorney who will take our case? If there’s been 10 million or more taken from the public over the years, this might be an attractive case for any number of firms.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 7:54 pm
He said the following in his last email to me:

Hi Jay,
Got your message. We filed an amended complaint to which the Defendants demurred*. The hearing will be in mid Sept. No class has been certified so everyone who received a ticket is free to do as they wish with respect to filing other actions (criminal or civil).
Best,
Mike

*demurrer
1. (Law) A pleading that admits an opponent’s point but denies that it is a relevant or valid argument
2. any objection raised

[Reply]
Comment by Mike Corcoran | August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

Just got one of these “citations” and will pay, because , despite the illegality of the camera enforcement, My son in law(driving) was guilty of a rolling stop(Sunday, no other traffic around and unlimited visibilty of oncoming traffic lane).

I’ve sent an email, and encourage others to do so, to the MRCA Secretary requesting email meeting notifications. Why not make more work for these idiots.

The content of my email is as follow:

Please add me to your email notification of meeting notices(MikeCorcoran@CorcoranRanch.com)

I just received an “Administrative Citation” for a stop sign violation in Temescal Gateway Park. The video shows that our vehicle(son-in-law driving)clearly braked, but rolled thru the stop sign. The citation, despite the fact that the video taken violates California Vehicle code, will be paid.
Evidently, 2 million dollars in annual revenue is hard to pass up for a state agency in today’s fiscal climate, even when taken illegally.
I guess having a job is the bottom line, but I can’t imaging how anyone with ethical standards can thrive in a situation your management has placed you in.

I see you currently have 10 legal actions pending. Amazing that an environmental “Conservation Agency”, who have such a sacred mission of public safety, would have such an extensive legal docket.

I look forward to receiving your meeting notices. I’m eagerly awaiting the expected notification of one or more class action suits related to these camera enforcement activities,
that will soon need to be addressed by your agency.

In case you’re not paying attention to the public response to your activities, the following links should get you up to date.

http://www.freedomminute.com/blog/state-government/the-100-stop-sign-scam/
http://www.palisadespost.com/news/content.php?id=5646
http://www.palisadespost.com/news/content.php?id=5382
http://www.onecitizenspeaking.com/2007/07/california-park.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jul/12/local/me-cameras12
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1846.asp

Regards,
Jon M.(Mike) Corcoran

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 7:49 pm
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I’m not sure we want the MRCA over here monitoring our discussion.

[Reply]
Comment by Tigran M. | August 10th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I desperately need someones help. I received one of these tickets at the Top of Topanga overlook and my due date is August 23rd. Now, I have decided to pay the ticket and just move on, but I need more time to gather the necessary funds. Can someone please give me advice on what to do? I want to try and get an extension, but I’m not sure if they’ll even consider that. Is there some other alternative? I can’t do the hardship waiver cause they want the money upfront and I can’t pay up yet. Please help.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 2:58 am
Why are you going to roll over and pay up without fighting?

[Reply]
Tigran M. Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 1:30 pm
I don’t want to risk getting my credit screwed up. I can always fight it afterwards, but as a temporary solution, I just want to pay it so I don’t have to think about it anymore. Because right now, it feels like a huge weight on my shoulders.
So is it possible to get an extension or postpone the due date for a while?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 5:01 pm
You can try contacting Diana Hartman who administers the citation program. Her number is 310-858-7272 ext. 103. If you really just want to pay it, I’d suggest calling (you may have to leave a message) and explaining your situation but you may to waive your right to a hearing if you accept a payment schedule.

By the way, this is just another piece of evidence that all they are really interested in is your money.

[Reply]
Tigran M. Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 5:56 pm
Thanks a bunch!

[Reply]
Tigran M. Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 6:08 pm
I completely agree with you. It is a money-making scheme. The part that really gets me is the fact that my citation was given at 11:13pm at night, when there were no cars in sight. It’s pretty unfair.

And that overlook is such a small and cramped place that it’s really hard to even notice the camera, especially at night, which is exactly what they hope for.

[Reply]
Comment by Howard | August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I’d recommend as many people as possible email one or two possibly sympathetic columnists at the LA Times or Daily News. I’ve done this to Steve Lopez and the city desk, though with no response. But perhaps with more people writing, and with your own stories, someone at these papers will start to pay attention.

For the Times, email addresses are typically in the format of firstname.lastname@latimes.com. You can also write to newstips@latimes.com. Nita Lelyveld is metro features editor and Martin Beck is assistant metro editor.

For the Daily News, the metro/news desk is at dnmetro@dailynews.com. For specific columnists, email addresses are typically in the format of firstname.lastname@dailynews.com. Steven Rosenberg and Rick Orlov are a couple reporters/columnists who might be appropriate for this type of story.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 11th, 2010 (4 weeks ago) at 5:12 pm
If anyone does get a response from a local journalist, please point them to this discussion and also let us know so I can make sure they have all the facts they need for their story.

[Reply]
Comment by josh | August 12th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I got one of these tickets a few years ago and tried to protest it. Somebody else was driving my vehicle and i received the summons. Their response was that i allowed somebody else to break the law with my vehicle so i had to pay the $100. It is total BS with lack of sufficient evidence. I still want my $100 back. If a lawsuit ensues, i want in.

[Reply]
Comment by josh | August 12th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

Oh, and i did talk to Susan Pascoe of the palisades post… She wrote a few articles on this scam and knew of potential lawsuits. She eventually went silent.
I also called my representative and it went nowhere.

[Reply]
Comment by tom henderson | August 12th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I reread that interview with one of the ‘wheels’ at MCRA, who stated the stop signs are a safety issue, “for the children” etc. Hell, if they want to slow cars down, then they would install those diagonal speed bumps. Simple, far less expensive, and way more practical. No question, its just a money grab. Re the Reseda stop sign, did you notice that there is only a SS for the N/Bound traffic? Guess there is no hazard or children present on the S/Bound side.

[Reply]
Comment by freedomminute | August 14th, 2010 (4 weeks ago)

I’ve just added a new function to the site so you can get updates about the MRCA. Scroll up to the top of the sidebar and sign up for the newsletter and check the “MRCA Alerts” box under “You can also sign up for specific lists”. This way you won’t miss any new information about lawsuits or other actions we’re taking to stop this illegal money grab by the MRCA.

[Reply]
Comment by Rachel | August 17th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

If you all haven’t seen it, check out the article the NY Times recently ran about this issue: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08traffic.html. As a recent victim of this scam, I take some heart from seeing that politicians are finally acknowledge public pressure about this issue. An interesting find from the article was that these automated systems do not even necessarily improve safety (although this one was about cameras at stop lights):

“A study of seven communities by the Federal Highway Administration found that while the more dangerous broadside collisions were reduced by 25 percent at intersections with traffic lights that had a camera, there was also a 15 percent increase in rear-end collisions, possibly caused by drivers slamming on their brakes at the sight of the devices.”

Like the other commenters here, I am completely outraged that the penalty is so completely out of line with the “infraction” (if not slowing to a complete halt in the middle of a demonstrably deserted parking lot can be considered such), not to mention how murky the process is.

Even the fact that you have to drive out to the middle of the mountains in order to defend yourself against these tickets (which is where these hearings take place: 2600 Franklin Canyon Dr., Beverly Hills, CA 90210. Google it–it’s in the middle of nowhere) seems designed to dispirit and inconvenience you into parting with your money without a fight.

Please add me to your email list for the class action suit. This is absolutely egregious. No one should have to pay a fine this steep for so slight an infraction, in times like these.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 3:08 pm
Thanks for the link to that article. I’m in the process of writing an article about the use of cameras for red light enforcement here in Los Angeles. You’ll be amazed at what I found out. Stay tuned.

[Reply]
Comment by Rachel | August 17th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

Also, I’m not sure if you received my message, as your contact page seems to be buggy, but you referred above to a solution you might have for those still fighting tickets. My hearing is today at 12:45 p.m. If you have any information that would be of use, would you please pass it along?

Thanks so much.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 3:05 pm
Sorry, it’s fixed now. The form broke when I upgraded to the most recent version of WordPress. Please let us know what happened at your hearing.

[Reply]
Comment by Alex | August 17th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

Hi, I received a ticket and am interested in fighting it. In comment #43 above, you state that you may have a solution and to contact you directly, so I submitted a comment directly yesterday, but I’m not sure it went through. I’m posting this note too just to be safe, so please contact me if that possible solution is still valid.

Thanks for organizing all the info and discussion on this issue. Hopefully this will help make a change.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 3:10 pm
Alex – Please use the contact form on my contact page to send me info on how to reach you.

[Reply]
Comment by palisadian | August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

I got my second “ticket” in the mail today and I just laughed. Last time they sent it to a collection agency in Ohio, I contacted the collection agency to let them know that this “ticket”, issued by a PRIVATE authority, was a violation of California State Law and filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau in Akron Ohio online. It took five minutes. Never heard from them again. I’ll do the same this time around. MCRA has as much right to issue these bills as you and I do for billing someone for parking in our driveway. If you’re stupid enough to pay, do it, but they are a paper tiger and can’t enforce these tix. Pretty much everyone here in the Palisades ignores them.

[Reply]
tom henderson Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 11:11 am
Palisadian- -Just curious as to how much info the MCRA got from the DMV in order to give to the collection agency. Did they have your Tele# or Soc Sec# ? I doubt that a SS# is ever given to the DMV in conjunction w/registration. So, I am wondering if the DMV aids and abets this MCRA by offering all info listed on your D/L file when req by the MCRA? If so, I have to think that is a viol of privacy statutes on the DMVs part.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 3:03 pm
You may never have heard from them again, but did it ever appear on your credit report and if so, was it taken off after you contacted them?

[Reply]
Comment by Clean record Pissed | August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

I got one of these Franklin park gangster ‘notice to pay’ demand letters from MRCA. Alledged violation happened on sunday July 25, video tape reviewed & issued 8-16-10 by MRCA ranger #564T Mr. TScattaglia, and recieved by common mail 8-18-10….They didn’t waste much time, now did they ?
In this ODD notice it strangely says, “As you can see from the photos to the right, a vehicle registered in your name and described below *appears* to have failed to come to a complete stop.” What ????!!! “appears” ???? No officer involved. If you do your Internet homework on this matter- LINK:
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsticket.htm#NotMe
IMHO: They don’t have a driver’s photo enclosed in this notice so the identity of the accual car driver at Franklin Park is unknown and sending this matter to the registered owner is not enough. Especially, when in the USA you have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in court of law AND have the right of personally confronting your accurser in a court of law. No photo of defendant driver, no law officer personally seeing the alledged violation…. this is unethical, illlegal, and fraud. Other legitamate law enforcement departments have cameras notices that have to include car license, photo intersection, and photo of the driver at the wheel at the time of possible violation. As to sending this onto a collection agencies, those are heavily regulated against harassing you by phone or letter due to federal laws governing that abuse. Also about reporting to this matter to your credit record, this is so small and so questionable as to negligible. And you can fight those bogus entries with the credit agencies. I was going to fight this just because it’s a clear case of law enforcement abuse. I want to make them work for their $175 admission fee to visit their park and I might be up for some guerilla tactics to cause some nuisance to the park of staff there. I’m up for report this to governement offcials, BBB, and everyone in Beverly Hills maybe it’s an election year for some?? My email is doberman1a @ Yahoo DOT com. Up the rebels on this….. !!

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 3:17 pm
Your outrage is justifiable, but I’d caution against doing anything that might put you in greater jeopardy with law enforcement. As to the “It’s not me” defense, that works for photo red light citations as there are specific rules for the use of the cameras under the vehicle code, one of which is the driver needs to be identifiable. Unfortunately, the MRCA is citing under their own ordinance which has no such requirements. Again, we all believe this is illegal, but forcing them to stop is another matter.

[Reply]
Comment by Clean Record Pissed | August 19th, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

You wrote…”MRCA is citing their own ordinance”. Such laws have to be publicly available for public knowledge and look. Anyone have a Internet link or book that I can get to learn about “their” ordinances…no matter how phony they are for the public. Send by email listed please or list here. I have 9-20-10 to make my decision on this matter.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 21st, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 1:41 am
The ordinance is supposed to be available at the MRCA website, but for some reason the link to it there is broken. Here’s a link to the most recent copy I have which is dated March 3rd.

Their ordinance is back up at http://www.mrca.ca.gov/MRCA_Ordinance_5-12-10.pdf They updated it (again) but I don’t think anything about the stop sign tickets has changed,

[Reply]
Comment by PS | August 21st, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

Hi everyone. Oh my God! I didn’t only get one ticket or two or three but FOUR. Can you believe it 4 tickets and probably counting. I had no idea about these cameras until I received these tickets. I’m a single mom, who works in Pacific Palisades, I was so happy that my daughter got to attend the camp at the temescal park through a financial hardship scholarship and then I receive these tickets. I have no way to pay for them. I’m loosing sleep, extremely stressed because I owe them $700.00 now. I am a very careful driver. I have never even been stopped by a cop. This park is so quiet, this stop sign is off a parking lot. I mean this is ridiculous. I have great credit and wouldn’t want to ruin it but I’m running out of options. In order to contest this you have to pay for it first, it’s so not fair. Please help me so I can join the lawsuit.

[Reply]
Howard Reply:
August 21st, 2010 (3 weeks ago) at 10:30 am
Your story sounds like a great one for the KCBS report — financial hardship, kids, and a ridiculously hidden and absurd camera location with no warnings. See the July 1st post above for info, but you should contact them ASAP, as I believe they are getting ready to send the camera crews out on this story.

[Reply]
PS Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 8:05 pm
Just to update you guys I am meeting with KCBS tomorrow, they are interviewing me on this story. I just received 3 more tickets today. So I have a total of 7 tickets.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:56 am
Please contact me if you want the attorney to help you fight this.

[Reply]
Comment by freedomminute | August 21st, 2010 (3 weeks ago)

Check out my two newest posts on this subject: Hire an Attorney to Fight Your MRCA Ticket and FAQ About MRCA Stop Sign Tickets. They should answer a lot of your questions.

[Reply]
Comment by Tigran M. | August 22nd, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I was just curious, the MRCA claims that this is not a moving violation. But when you think about it, doesn’t RUNNING a stop sign constitute a moving violation? What if you pay it and then find out that it went on your record?

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:55 am
I can pretty much guarantee that it won’t go on your record as they would have to cite you under the vehicle code for that to happen. Besides, they are only interested in the fine.

[Reply]
Tigran M. Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 5:01 pm
Oh I see, thanks.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 22nd, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I put put up a sign on the camera pole warning of the camera.
I also tried to warn drivers, but no one seemed concerned!!

Oh well!

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:53 am
They’ll be concerned when they get a $175 ticket mailed to them. I’ll bet your sign doesn’t stay up very long.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 22nd, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

These cameras are everywhere. Driving last week, along Highway 41 from Fresno to Yosemite, there are cameras at just about every light. Pretty soon driving will be a liability, making it impossible to go out without risking a citation. Watch out for the ones at Long Beach Airport too!

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:51 am
I keep asking this question: Do we want to live in a society in which we are constantly monitored by the government so they can fine us for every little mistake we make? I know that’s not the society I want to live in.

[Reply]
Comment by Clean Record Pissed | August 23rd, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Been talking to Ms. Medina….racket victims should too.
-

I’m David’s producer, Nicolette.
When you get a chance, can you call me to talk about your ticket? My number is 818 – 655 – 2441

Nicolette Medina
Producer
CBS2/KCAL9 TV Los Angeles

4200 Radford Ave.
Studio City, CA 91604
818.655.2441
818.655.2440 fax
nmedina@cbs.com

[Reply]
Nicolette Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 10:16 am
Please call me TODAY if you’ve received tickets at stop signs other than the location at Temescal.

Nicolette
CBS2
818 655 2441

[Reply]
Comment by Clean Record Pissed | August 24th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

What is the phone number, email, and mailing address to MRCA ?

Maybe, WE should send them thousands of anonymous ‘demand correspondences’ or flood their phone number, email, and mailing address ?
I like the idea of suing them in small claims over this. I have spoken to the CBS producer and will be meeting them soon. I might have to appear anonymously on camera in silhouette….LOL

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 24th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 10:43 am
I also really like the idea of an annoyance campaign. Paper the hell out of them and make them work for our money.

[Reply]
Clean Record Pissed Reply:
August 30th, 2010 (6 days ago) at 10:49 am
Tell them what you think of this ticket racket, face to face in Thousand Oaks on 2:05 PM on Weds Sept 1, 2010 in ‘public comment’ time !! OR you call call them or write them directly with this info.

-
Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority
Governing Board Meeting- weds, Sept 1, 2010

Notice is given pursuant to Govt Code ss54956 that the governing board of the MRCA will hold a ***special meeting on Weds Sept 1 ’10 at 2:05 PM at Conejo Recreation and Park District; 403 West Hillcrest Drive, Thusand Oaks, CA.***

Special Agenda:
1. Call to order
2. roll call
3. public testimony on all agenda items and public comment on matters not on the agenda.
4. Consideration of resolution requesting gubernatorial approval of AB 2554 (Brownley)
5. Closed session

MRCA may hold a closed session on the following items pursuant to Govt Code ss 54956.8 and 54956.9 Confindetial memoranda related to these items may be considered during such closed session discussions.

Conferance with legal counsel. Number of cases (10) 1. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No LC077488; 2. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No BC377233; 3. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority v. City of Malibu, and related litigation; 4. City of Malibu v. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority; 5. Pfaff v. Bess, Case No 56-2007-00308501;6. Pfaff v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority; 7. City of Malibu v. California Coastal Commission, Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy, Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority Case No BS121650; 8/ Friends of Temescal Poll v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No BC405252; 9. Malibu-Encinal Homeowners Assoc v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority BC 431798 and 10. Estwick v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority BC434783.

Annoucement of Future meetings and adjournment

MRCA Special Agenda: Sept 1 2010

**Public comment is welcome on any agenda item and matters not on a agenda.** During the meeting the Governing Board may hold a closed session on any item pursuant to Govt Cade ss 54956.8 and 54956.9. **Unless otherwise ordered, individuals will be allowed THREE minute to speak and representatives of organizations/.agencies will be givien FIVE minutes.** For further information on any agenda item plaes contact Rorie Skei, Chief Deputy Executive Officer, at 310-589-3230, Ext #112.

NOTE: The entire agenda package and meeting related writings or documents provided to a majority of the Board members after distirbution of the agenda package, unless exempt from disclosure pursuant to Calif Law will be availbale at the Conejo Recreation and Park Distict Officies, 403 West Hillcrest Drive, Thousand Oaks, Calif. ***Any questions reguarding tiems on MRCA agenda contact Board Secretary at 310-589-3230 ext #118.***

[Reply]
Comment by PS | August 24th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I was just interviewed by KCBS and I contacted the Braun Law group and a private attorney to stop this scam. I have received 7 of these tickets now.

[Reply]
Comment by Rachel | August 24th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

When the story runs on KCBS, would someone please post the link here so we can all publicize it via social media, etc.?

I had my hearing last week, which was a total joke. I got my letter that they had denied my request almost before I got home.

I will post here on what to expect so everyone can be better prepared if they choose the “hearing” option. In the meantime, here is a visual on the incredibly professional hearing location: http://imgur.com/KfsYj.jpg

[Reply]
Comment by PS | August 24th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I just spoke with attorney:
R. Allen Baylis

9042 Garfield Ave., Suite 306

Huntington Beach, CA 92646

Phone: 714-962-0915

He’s interested in helping us. He specializes in traffic violation cases. He would like to start a class action lawsuit or see if he can do something to help us. If you just received a or some tickets recently, he wants to hear from you. Everyone who’s interested in fighting for justice please contact him, he needs a good number of cases in order for this mission to be successful.

I will keep you guys posted of when the CBS will air. They are suppose to contact me and inform me since they interviewed me today.

[Reply]
Comment by Eli Garcia | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Hi All,

I am being interviewed at the top of Reseda by CBS around 3pm tomorrow.

I have my story, but would love to hear some quick talking points from all of you as to what I may want to bring up.

In particular, Nicolette mentioned having spoken with a woman who called the police department to ask about her “ticket” and was told that the signage isn’t even legal. Has anyone spoken with the police or other agencies that have to do with the signage?

[Reply]
Comment by Mason | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Great thread, great info, thanks. I’m wondering, what if a class action is brought against MRCA and the plaintiffs lose? And MRCA has brought a counterclaim against the plaintiffs (at least the ones who have not paid the fine) for the amount of the fines, plus interest? Might the judge order the plaintiffs to pay MRCA, which would be worse than just having MRCA’s “tickets” demanding payments?

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I’ve been selected for an interview tomorrow with KCBS about the Reseda stop sign camera scam. Anyone have any suggestions as to what salient points to bring up??

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 4:17 pm
Hey, I’ll be there at the same time, I think.

I’d also like some talking points (see 75 above).

See you tomorrow!

[Reply]
Howard Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 4:23 pm
I’d have liked to done such an interview, as I was ticketed at the top of Reseda, but I have decided to simply ignore the ticket, as though it never arrived (and a TV interview would work counter to that).

The most obvious point is that the sign is placed in the middle of nowhere (no cross streets, pedestrians, etc) and has no corresponding stop in the other direction.

Secondarily, there were no warning signs at all when I got my ticket (not sure about now). Nothing attached to the stop sign itself, no “rules and regulations” upon entering the property, etc.

The above two points show that “safety” was not the goal.

More generally speaking, many of us paid for parking ($8?) at the self-service box, and many of us also pay an extra $40 per year as a direct assessment with our property taxes (listed as “MRCA OPNSPACE #2″ on my tax form). We support parks, but not these types of illegal fundraising methods.

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 4:45 pm
I agree entirely.

The parks were quite safe before they installed the cameras, so what difference do they make, other than to park revenues?

Really, this is just one facet of a greater problem, which is that the folks up in the capital have blown all our money and can’t get their budgets in order, so government agencies are having to pass the deficit along to us with what amounts to hidden taxes.

I can’t leave the house without seeing two or three people pulled over and ticketed lately, especially around the end of the month. The police and parking enforcement are out in force.

It’s sad – there is a huge ‘sting’ operation near me on Pershing (around the west side of the airport) almost every weekend now. It has no side traffic, zero foot traffic, no nearby houses or businesses, very low traffic, and is fenced on both sides. Of course people drive fairly fast there – the street is wide and straight, comparable to a freeway.

The whole mess is just dirty.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Eli:

Is it 2PM or 3PM?? Nicolette said 2PM to me.

We should get there earlier to discuss what we will say.

A lot is riding on this!

Bruce

[Reply]
Follow the money Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 10:11 pm
I am so glad to see this moving forward.
Some talking points I would bring up is the lack of traffic at THIS (Reseda) stop and the “safety” reasons they claim are the reason for the camera. If it was so unsafe why is there no camera in the opposite direction (unsafe conditions only exist one way???). With all the money they have made off of this scam and again if safety were the issue (ask how many accidents have occurred there) why not put speed bumps to slow traffic along the path? Mention the lack of and size of signage; the way the camera seems to be hidden on the way up the hill; Ask if they have taken video of the site in the evening when there are no lights up there and see how late they notice the stop sign (does not reflect well) in complete darkness. I am sure that the whole fiasco of contesting this ticket will also be mentioned…location of admin. hearing, persons involved, not being able to examine the evidence indepentently…the list goes on and on.
Good luck!

[Reply]
Comment by Eli Garcia | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

It was 3PM, but she called back and rescheduled for 2PM.

We could show up a bit early to discuss. What time are you thinking?

I don’t know how much control we will have over the questions, or how much airtime we will need to be edited down into (assume not much), so I was planning on answering in short, but relevant soundbites.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Eli:

How about 1:30PM??

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 4:57 pm
1:30 is fine. It will be good to meet and discuss a bit beforehand.

I am assuming Nicolette with have most of the facts and arguments already, and our part will be simply to show some outrage by local citizens who feel scammed. Could be wrong though – I’ve never done this before.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 6:28 pm
I can meet you guys up there at 1:30 to help you prepare if you’d like.

[Reply]
Comment by rippedoffhiker | August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Has anyone else noticed that the video looks speeded up?

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 4:50 pm
It does look that way to me, but I have no real way of measuring. It could be real time.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 25th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 9:44 pm
This is one reason the “hearing” (and this whole process) is so unfair. In a normal trial, there are rules as to what evidence can and can’t be admitted and if you can’t cross examine the person who claims to have collected the evidence and all the people who have had the evidence in their custody from the time it was collected to the time it is being presented as evidence against you then the evidence is “hearsay” and should not be admitted.

In the case of the video evidence, you are not being permitted to cross examine all the people who had access to it, nor the people who have first hand knowledge of how the technology works and whether or not it has been altered or tampered with in any way. The only people who can testify to these things are the people from the camera company and they are not at the hearing and you aren’t being permitted to cross examine them.

This is the basis of the decision that Allen Baylis won in Orange County and why it should now be more difficult (if judges follow the law) for automated photo evidence to be used against you in court.

[Reply]
Clean Record Pissed Reply:
August 30th, 2010 (6 days ago) at 11:08 am
I work in video and editing….the tape looked like it was 2x actual speed. My brake lights were clearly on. Speeded up my ‘stop’ would look non-existant. I don’t trust a non-human accuser and that I have to prove myself innocent. That’s not the American way. They have to prove me wrong and I have a right to confront my accuser, NOT a camera.

[Reply]
Comment by Raiza | August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I started reading all these replies and haven’t had the time to go through all of them because there ARE A LOT! haha anyways I am out of state and got one of these tickets in the mail. I proceeded to do some research as everyone here has because it is ridiculous. Three of my roommates have also received this same ticket. I am willing to be a part of this whole group to stop this whole scam. Does anyone have any ideas as to how to fight the ticket? Here are some things I came up with while doing some research that I haven’t seen posted here yet.

Having to pay the ticket violates your right to be innocent until proven guilty. Which is our due process right.

One thing I came across somewhere in the California State Law 21455.5 (a) that states a limit line, intersection or a place designated by section 21455, where a driver is required to stop may be equipped with an automated enforcement system if the government agency utilizing the system meets all of the following requirements:

1. identifies system by signs that clearly indicate the systems presence and are visible to traffic approaching from ALL directions.

I know that the Park on top of Reseda Blvd only has a sign if you are going downhill but does not have one when you are going uphill. That would be a violation of this State Law.

I read somewhere that a ticket cannot be issued by anyone other than a law enforcement officer. Also that..

Hearsay
Hearsay is another possible but untested defense that may work in court. Documents and evidence (photos) produced by non-government personnel are legally considered hearsay unless those responsible for the generation of the documents are present in person to testify about them. Evidence that is hearsay can be objected to and barred from being used in court, making the case against you extremely weak if not non-existent. At a minimum, and if applicable, be sure to emphasize to the court that the information being presented was not produced by anone present in the courtroom and that such evidence is to be discounted highly because of such. Go on to mention that the information being shown in court is from a financially interested party – that is, they make money if you are found guilty.

I’m gathering more information and writing it down…

[Reply]
rippedoffhiker Reply:
August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:08 pm
I was at the top of Reseda today for the interview with KCBS, and there is a sign at the barricade on the uphill portion of the road. I had not seen this one or the one at the bottom of the stop sign, which says “photo enforced” before today.

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 7:19 pm
I just looked back a the pictures I took when I posted this article back in May and the signs were up then. Of course, no amount of signage changes the fact that what they are doing is illegal according to the laws of California.

[Reply]
Howard Reply:
August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 9:18 pm
By mid/late June when I got my ticket, there definitely was no “photo enforced” sign attached to the stop signs. If there had been, I would have come to a complete stop — not because there was a need, but because I would have avoided a needless headache with the MRCA.

[Reply]
Comment by tom henderson | August 26th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Howard, Did you ck the video footage that they provided? I forgot to do that, but in early July, I sure dont remember seeing that dinky add on sign “photo enforced” below the stop sign.

[Reply]
rippedoffhiker Reply:
August 27th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 6:42 am
In my video from July 4, the sign can be seen, although I don’t remember seeing it at the time.

[Reply]
Howard Reply:
August 27th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 9:46 am
Mine was on June 20 — I just viewed the video again and it is there, sort of. The shape of the rectangle is there under the Stop sign, but it seems that it is blurred out. I’ll assume that it was indeed legitimately there.

[Reply]
Comment by Grace | August 27th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I received 2 tickets for violations at Temescal Canyon – I was not the driver. Paid to have a hearing (couldn’t risk a smear on my credit report), hearing took place on 8/21/10 via phone (i have since moved to no. cal.), received determination that violations are valid and they will retain my monies. Not only is this a financial hardship on me, I am outraged at the attitude of the MRCA. Left message for Lawyer Baylis today. If he can put the MRCA in its place and recover my $350, I am happy to pay him the $350. If it costs more than this, it will be difficult for me to pursue…

[Reply]
freedomminute Reply:
August 28th, 2010 (2 weeks ago) at 6:29 pm
Grace – If you want to preserve your right to continue fighting this, you have to file an appeal with the superior court within 20 days of the decision by the hearing officer. It will cost you $25 but you will get that back if you win. Don’t miss this deadline.

[Reply]
Comment by Cathee Cohen | August 28th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

I received one of these tickets in January 2010.

It was very early in the morning around 6am, the cloud cover was perfect. I drove to the “Top of Topanga” took a few quick shots of the sunrise, I must have spent 15 minutes just watching Mother Nature at her best. I drove back down Topanga and enjoyed the rest of the day.

About one week later, I was awaken by our Mail Lady who rang our door bell and had me sign for a letter. I had no idea what I was about to receive, but our Mail Lady informed me she has been delivering lots of “these letters” over the past 6 months (remember this was in January). I could not believe I ws getting a ticket, which I needed to pay for, could not fight, BUT get this this ticket had NO effect on my insurance!

So I went to the web site and sure enough I performed a California stop….and why not it was 6 O’Clock on a Saturday Morning.

I paid it without a fight! One because I really did not stop, but more importantly why fight a ticket which will not effect my insurance rates.

If I could fight it now based on what I just read I would! And I’m willing to join a class action suit!

[Reply]
Comment by Grace | August 28th, 2010 (2 weeks ago)

Yes I understand, thank you. The superior court location is in Van Nuys for some reason. And thank you for starting this blog and contacting Mr. Baylis and providing the information. He told me he won’t be filing a class action suit and proceeded to explain why, but I couldn’t quite catch everything he was saying with my toddler trying to talk to me at the same time. I will send him the documents I received from MRCA and then see what he thinks about my case. My husband and I also considered small claims court, but thought it wouldn’t be possible to file a claim since the MRCA is a government agency. Do you have any update on this alternative?

[Reply]
Comment by Clean Record Pissed | August 30th, 2010 (6 days ago)

Let’s roll and stop this racket !!!! Let’s pull a ‘City of Bell’ residents public comment’s meeting on MRCA this Weds….
-
Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority
Governing Board Meeting- weds, Sept 1, 2010

Notice is given pursuant to Govt Code ss54956 that the governing board of the **MRCA will hold a special meeting on Weds Sept 1 ’10 at 2:05 PM at Conejo Recreation and Park District; 403 West Hillcrest Drive, Thousand Oaks, CA.**

Special Agenda:
1. Call to order
2. roll call
3. public testimony on all agenda items and public comment on matters not on the agenda.
4. Consideration of resolution requesting gubernatorial approval of AB 2554 (Brownley)
5. Closed session

MRCA may hold a closed session on the following items pursuant to Govt Code ss 54956.8 and 54956.9 Confindetial memoranda related to these items may be considered during such closed session discussions.

Conferance with legal counsel. Number of cases (10) 1. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No LC077488; 2. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No BC377233; 3. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority v. City of Malibu, and related litigation; 4. City of Malibu v. Robings v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority; 5. Pfaff v. Bess, Case No 56-2007-00308501;6. Pfaff v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority; 7. City of Malibu v. California Coastal Commission, Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy, Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority Case No BS121650; 8/ Friends of Temescal Poll v. Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy and Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority, Case No BC405252; 9. Malibu-Encinal Homeowners Assoc v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority BC 431798 and 10. Estwick v. Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority BC434783.

Annoucement of Future meetings and adjournment

MRCA Special Agenda: Sept 1 2010

**Public comment is welcome on any agenda item and matters not on a agenda.** During the meeting the Governing Board may hold a closed session on any item pursuant to Govt Cade ss 54956.8 and 54956.9. **Unless otherwise ordered, individuals will be allowed THREE minute to speak and representatives of organizations/.agencies will be given FIVE minutes.** For further information on any agenda item plaes contact Rorie Skei, Chief Deputy Executive Officer, at 310-589-3230, Ext #112.

NOTE: The entire agenda package and meeting related writings or documents provided to a majority of the Board members after distirbution of the agenda package, unless exempt from disclosure pursuant to Calif Law will be availbale at the Conejo Recreation and Park Distict Officies, 403 West Hillcrest Drive, Thousand Oaks, Calif. **Any questions reguarding tiems on MRCA agenda contact Board Secretary at 310-589-3230 ext #118.**

[Reply]
Follow the money Reply:
August 30th, 2010 (6 days ago) at 9:06 pm
Don’t forget to mention that the MRCA paid Redflex for their services for the month of July….a total of $30,800. If the orginial contract figure of $25 per ticket is to be paid to Redflex that means 1232 “tickets” were paid for and the MRCA made $185,000 on this scam.

[Reply]
Comment by Anon | August 31st, 2010 (5 days ago)

I just spoke to Bayliss and to be clear, he’s not talking about a class action lawsuit. He wants to represent a group in court to get their tickets waived. Whether or not that makes sense will depend upon how much it costs in legal fees to fight a $175 ticket. I have to pay my ticket imminently and was not clear from our conversation if he would represent someone who has already paid. I have no idea how much it would cost; did he give anyone an estimate?

I’m very disappointed with Braun’s office that no one seems to have received a return call or further info. Usually a class action attorney is interested in the class he represents (!) and is in communication with them somewhat regularly.

I wish I could attend the 1000 oaks meeting but cannot. Please keep us posted.

[Reply]
Comment by josh | August 31st, 2010 (5 days ago)

There are plenty of other traffic attorneys out there. I tried a person by the name of Arthur Tait for a separate matter. Tix Nix can be responsive too. It isn’t worth it on an individual $175 ticket but it would definitely be worth while if the lawsuit case was won.
I paid my MRCA fine to protest my ‘citation’ about 2 years ago and if reimbursed would give half, if not all of that money to see actual justice served to the MRCA. If everybody on this site thought the same, it would be a lucrative offer for an attorney… I’d love to see the MRCA go down. It is a blatant scam… and makes me wish i went to law school so i could put up a better fight.

[Reply]
Comment by freedomminute | August 31st, 2010 (5 days ago)

Is anyone planning on going to the MRCA board meeting tomorrow? If a bunch of people are going, I might be able to make it and we could let David Goldstein know in case he wants to send a camera crew out. But we’d have to let him know before the end of the day.

[Reply]
Comment by Clean Record Pissed | September 2nd, 2010 (3 days ago)

Anyone go and report on the MRCA 1000 Oaks meeting yesterday ?
I imagine 2:00 PM is hard for most to get there on a weekday. Would like to know if anything happened like KCBS filmed it or any new reports came out of it….Fill me in.

[Reply]
Comment by Anon | Yesterday

I spoke with Michael Braun this week. This is the scoop on the class action lawsuit.

The MRCA is undertaking an attack on the pleading (I believe it’s called a demur). Braun is currently answering that. They should have a decision within a few weeks.

Once they know whether or not they’ve prevailed, the process of certifying the class begins. He couldn’t say how long that will take. Once certification happens, then everyone who received a ticket will get something in the mail asking if they want to be considered a member of this class. The whole process is very slow.

Didn’t think to ask him what we could expect if the suit prevailed — would class members get back the full fee they paid, their fee plus interest, or only a percentage of the fee?

The answer to that question (as well as time involved) may make the difference to some as to whether or not they want to work with Bayliss or another attorney or just wait out the class action process.

In a class action, the attorneys customarily work on contingency and take their earnings from the judgment sum. Unless the judge awarded punitive damages, I’m guessing members will see only a portion of their fees paid returned.

[Reply]
Eli Garcia Reply:
Yesterday at 5:09 pm
Hell, if he can kick the MRCA in the balls for me a couple times, he can keep the whole $350.

[Reply]
josh Reply:
Yesterday at 5:56 pm
I agree with Eli! I said goodbye (and a few curse words) to that money when i wrote that check. At this point, i’d rather see the MRCA go down…. But hey, a few bucks back would be nice too….

[Reply]

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The Freedom Minute is dedicated to a discussion of all things having to do with personal freedom and what I see as the steady encroachment by government on our personal rights. I take a decidedly libertarian point of view in my analysis of economics and personal freedoms. Note that I intentionally spell libertarian with a small "l" since I identify more with the overall philosophy than with any political party. If you're not familiar with libertarian philosophy or you think you know what it is, it might be useful to read the short primer which appears in the Philosophy section. In addition, you might want to grab a copy of Libertarianism: A Primer by David Boaz or Libertarianism in One Lesson by David Bergland, both excellent books on libertarian thought.

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